Sleep Like a Baby: You AND Your Twins! Featuring The Sleep Lady, Kim West

sleep like a baby

Twiniversity friend and sleep expert Kim West — aka The Sleep Lady — joined Nat in a Facebook Live Chat to talk about sleep for your twinnies, AND YOU! This chat was hosted by our partner Love to Dream, creators of the Swaddle UP.

(Natalie)
“It’s happening! {Gasp} We’re on live with Kim and Nat, the Kim and Nat Show! Guys, Welcome to our live feed. I may have to put my hair back, because it’s a thousand degrees in here.”

(Kim)
“It is hot! But {your hair} looks lovely down.”

(Natalie)
“It’s about ninety-five degrees in here! My hair.. Does it look good? Ok, I’ll leave it down for you. I’ve declared officially that you’re my woman crush Wednesday today!”

(Kim)
“Awwww! The honor!”

(Natalie)
“You should be! It’s a good honor. Have you ever met Fred?”

(Kim)
“No?”

(Natalie)
“Well officially, Fred this is Kim, um, whenever we do any wonderful chats with Love To Dream, Fred always breaks out. But, truthfully Fred is almost becoming like my mascot.”

(Kim)
“Yeah?!”

(Natalie)
“Do you know why his name is Fred?”

(Kim)
“No, why?”

(Natalie)
“Because I wanted the name Johnny Fred (laughs) and I got vetoed on that. So that’s why we have Fred, Hey! Love To Dream is here! See, and I love that you guys said hi to Fred and not us – Thanks! We appreciate that! Hold Fred for a minute and I’m going to explain what’s going on for the day. So what we are doing is doing a live chat today and we are talking all about sleep – Not just for you, and not just for your “twinnies” but for you too. So if you’re having trouble getting into the swing of things after the babies are here, then we are gonna talk about that. We probably should introduce ourselves?”

(Natalie)
“They know who I am but I don’t know if they know who you are? I mean, I know that they know who you are, but they may not have ever met you in person before.”

(Kim)
“That’s fine, I can tell them! Maybe not? I’m Kim West, also known as The Sleep Lady.”

(N)
“Yes, where’s her book? She wrote this eight-thousand page journal {laughs}. It’s as big as like, a Mazda owners manual, I think this is what is it, but this would be kinda like your bible if you are trying to get your kids to sleep – from birth and up, and it’s really ‘and up’, not even just toddler-hood, like it goes…”

(K)
“… to six years old.”

(N)
“But that’s a lot! If we can’t get our kids to sleep by six, I fear for us. Can you imagine? Oh, I could imagine! But, not only if you got them to sleep, they could regress. And Kim has her own method and it’s called ‘The Sleep Lady Shuffle’ and it really is fascinating. So if you do not have this book in your arsenal of goodies then I would recommend it. Julie could put a link – oh, so Jules is on! So you see us but behind the curtain of Oz we have Julie and she’s on with us today and I’m very thankful that we have our friends over at Love To Dream… so here we go! Look, yes Jules has a link to your book!”

(K)
“Thank you, Jules!”

(N)
“Magic! Magic! So Julie’s there and what we’re gonna do is as we go through the next seven hours of our life because that’s how long this is gonna be {laughs} um, we have questions that have already been sent to us so we’re going to get those answered just to kick us off and we are going to talk about some of the great goodies at Love To Dream. So I know that Fred is wearing one of my favorite ones, that’s the organic one and we’re going to talk about the Love To Dream swaddler and we’re also very excited that Love To Dream has a brand new website – Very exciting! I feel like everybody is getting a new website! Thanks Jules, We love you! Just letting you know that you’re on it.”

(N)
“So here’s what’s happening, if you see me look over here it’s simply because Julie texts me questions and our camera is a little bit far away from us – Could you read that?”

(K)
“No {laughs}.”

(N)
“No. I can’t even like close to read that, even with glasses. I’d have to be like ‘what does that say? {moves close to the camera}. That’s good! So, shoot us some questions and we will answer them. We have a lot of prizes to give away too! Which is very exciting because who doesn’t like a good prize?! And let’s get going already with the questions? Are you ready?”

(K)
“ I’m ready!”

(N)
“I love that Julie made the font big!”

(K)
“We appreciate that Julie!

(N)
“We do! Our aging eyes. Alright, Lauren has a lot of questions but this is the first one. My three month old twins are sleeping great in their crib at night, but are still napping in their rock-and-plays during the day. Whenever I try to get them to nap in their cribs, they seem restless and do not nap as well or as long. When and how should I push this transition? So, three month old twins sleeping great in their cribs at night – rock-and-plays during the day, then all hell breaks loose.”

(K)
“You know what, Lauren believe it or not I would tell you to leave it alone. Because – well first of all, kudos to you on your twins that they are sleeping well in their crib at three months, Yay! That’s amazing! I would celebrate that get as much rest as you can yourself and leave it be. Use the rock-in-play to fill the daytime sleep tank. Day sleep develops after night sleep and it’s really just the inklings now, you’re starting to see a schedule developing and this is the time between three and four months when they start to produce their own melatonin, the drowsy making hormone. This is the hormone that starts their internal clock, and that will tell the baby when to take a nap, when to go down at night and you watch their cues. So I would really- actually leave it alone. Just make sure they are well rested during the day and they make it to bedtime not running on vapors. And if you are going to start anything in terms of sleep coaching, I’d probably tell you to hold and wait for the four month sleep regression to be over…”

(N)
“Because that’s a real thing!”

(K)
“It is a real thing.”

(N)
“But like, is it medically documented or universally coincidental?”

(K)
“Actually I think the person who really talks the most beautifully about it is Dr. Brazerten in his book ‘Touch Points’ and he says that developmental milestones are the number one thing that brings parents into the pediatrician that ends up not being sickness, because everything gets thrown off – social, emotional, feeding, sleep – and you’re like ‘What happened to my baby?’”

(N)
“Yeah! And at four months…”

(K)
“… And you get through the milestone and there are several of them over the years. And they get through it and everything kinda returns to normal. The problem is when we’re trying to get through it we start panicking and sometimes create maybe, new habits that we have to undo later.”

(N)
“So it’s us. It’s us as much as them. It’s everybody. Ok, so now just to finish up her question. So when should she push the transition. Wait until the four month sleep regression and then start considering going from the rock-and-plays to the cribs? Now, how should she do this? Should she put the rock-and-plays in the room where the cribs are and get them used to that setting during naps?”

(K)
“ I mean, she definitely could especially if that room is quieter and darker, so that she could make it a soothing routine. Um, I would say that when you start to feel like your twins – When you’re up to it too mom I should say, and when you feel like your twins are up for this ‘put myself to sleep thing’ even at bedtime, then I would say today – whatever day it is- then I’m just going to put them down for, say the morning nap and I’m going to try for ten or fifteen minutes. I might go back and forth, and twins soothe themselves, see what happens, you know kinda experiment. And if you decide oh they get really hysterical after ten or fifteen minutes then you can just give up, put them in the rock-and-play and try again the next day.”

(N)
“It’s such a gentle method that you have by the way, the dog is coming in and might knock over a light or something – She loves you Kim, she’s trying to get you to pet her”

(K)
“ Oh I know!”

(N)
“But get out of here buddy, go lay down. I think that Betty is trying to tell us that we need to give away one of your books! I have them so is it ok if we do that?”

(K)
“Ok! Yes!”

(N)
“We can even use your supply so that we don’t have to eat from my supply. I really think that parents do need this. We can buy this on your website can’t we?”

(K)
“Yeah! Or Amazon. I mean, I usually direct people to Amazon or wherever they are in the world there are different resources.”

(N)
“Alright, I would like for you to do this – If you would like to win a copy of Kim’s book all you have to say is ‘I need that book’ – that’s it! That’s how we do it! And Julie will go in and randomly pick a winner, and if you don’t have The Sleep Lady’s ‘Goodnight Sleep Tight’ then you really need to but now one person is going to get it. Would you sign this?”

(K)
“Of course”

(N)
“For an extra dollar, I’m charging you for her signature today {laughs}. We want to give away a book so just should it out, let us know that you want a book, you need a book – whatever it is and we will make sure that we get one out to you. But now, how did I meet you? Did I meet you with Cloud V?”

(K)
“Yes it was and in L.A.”

(N)
“And it was love at first sight. We played in the ball pit – it really was!”

(K)
“And actually we had to go on stage, we met each other and half an hour later we had to go on stage and present to each other and were like, hi how are you? What are we going to say?”

(N)
“And I was like ‘what are the five things you are going to say’ and I’ll take these five things. Which is funny because even though I talk about sleep from a very different angle than Kim does and in all sincerity when it comes to sleep at Twiniversity it is really based off all of Kim’s method. So Kim has, I hate to use the word ‘humane’ – I think that’s a stupid word to use when talking about sleep, but it’s also gentle and more feminine, that’s really the word I wanna use. When I feel like other people in the sleep universe have a very dominant method or masculine approach that doesn’t always fit with people’s maternal instinct. Your method of sleep coaching – you don’t call it training, whatever blah blah blah. Your method of sleep coaching is using the baby to guide the parent but also giving the parent the push to make the best decisions for their baby. We were talking about something last night, I wish I could remember, we were talking about… So Kim and I went out last night and we went for sushi, I however, got food poisoning and this is the first time that I’m sitting up {laughs} but look, I pulled it together.”

(K)
“She’s amazing.”

(N)
“You know why I did it, even though I feel like crap, I would never miss an opportunity for you guys to be with Kim, I just wouldn’t because I know that this is such a unique and valuable experience for the parents out there that even if I were here with a bucket next to me…”

(K)
“She would do it!”

(N)
“Another reason why we didn’t do this at the hotel, we were going to do this at Kim’s hotel, was if I do have to get up and jet, then you won’t hear anything – because my bathroom is right there.”

(K)
“Ohhh, good thinking!”

(N)
“That’s totally the mom in me thinking ok, If I do have to puke I don’t want anyone to hear me in our live feed, because that would be…”

(K)
“She’s always thinking!”

(N)
“We do! We’re moms!”

(K)
“So I’m just going to chime in about what you were saying about my method since you started thinking about your stomach {laughs}, but I just wanted to say that I believe parents should have a choice in sleep coaching and it shouldn’t just be cry it out or suffer. I have done this for years and it’s not that cry it out doesn’t work, it’s just that it doesn’t work for everyone and I want every parent to feel like they have an option and it’s important that they feel like they have an option – there are really only three – that you pick the one that seems like the right one for your child’s temperament, the one that feels right to you in your heart and in your parenting philosophies and the one that you can pick that you will do consistently and if you’re not sure it’s always best to start off gently and then you can just move away. I have the parent stay with the child offering physical and verbal reassurance while they are into learning the skill themselves then we sort of back off as the parent, doing less and less and moving away.”

(N)
“But logistically, how is that going to work for us?”

(K)
“I’ve worked with quadruplets doing this, I’m just saying it’s possible.”

(N)
“Show off. But look, you’re not the average Joe FYI and you could have septuplets and be like, Boom Boom Boom Boom Boom. It’s not the same thing. But if you’ve never had kids before or say you’ve never even held a baby before, all of a sudden you shoot and two come out immediately – Boom Boom – and you’re like, ‘What am I going to do?’ So let’s just talk about that for a second and we will get back to the questions in a sec but I think it’s important, first of all – It’s never too late if you start right now and it doesn’t matter if your kids are one month or six years old it’s always going to be fine. So do you want to give us three, I know I never narrow it down and then it surprise you…”

(K)
“She loves to surprise me!”

(N)
“ I know but whatever! So what are the three ways that parents can prepare or begin with sleep coaching? So like, get them in their cribs pretty much all the time – do you ever say, lets use a pack-and play or lets use a rock-and-play or is it all crib all the time as much as possible?”

(K)
“I’m going to try to see if I can understand your question and what you’re looking for. I have a chapter in my book and an article on my blog that talks about the ten steps to take before sleep coaching, ok is that what you’re talking about?

(N)
“ Ok, that’s what I mean, before we officially start the sleep coaching, how do we set the stage so that it goes off flawlessly?”

(K)
“Ok, got it got it! Ok, So I’m going to say, believe it or not is I want you to go to to your pediatrician or your family care doctor and ask them ‘given my twins age, weight and health, how much should they be feeding, how many calories should they be consuming in a 12 hour period at night, how is their overall health, you basically want the green light because believe it or not there are underlying medical conditions and believe it or not I wouldn’t want you sleep coaching your twins if they had something like reflux that wasn’t under control. There’s sleep apnea, there’s restless legs, there are lots of things…”

(N)
“Did you just say restless legs? Babies get restless legs?”

(K)
“Restless leg syndrome. Yes, Children can get restless legs.”

(N)
“How old can get they get that until?”

(K)
“You know, I’m not actually sure what’s the youngest that’s been diagnosed but I’ve definitely had toddlers and preschoolers that have had this.”

(N)
“Wow I didn’t know that. You teach me so much. Remember that because your twins can be born early that your four months could be someone else’s four months and no matter what you have to visit your family doctor…”

(K)
“And I think too that it’s helpful to have realistic expectations and people think it’s, oh four months I have to do all this and some babies are just not ready. You know?”

(N)
“Yes! Yes.”

(K)
“ A lot of babies are not ready at four months and we may be ready. And also I like for parents to gently, well not gently but simply log what are your babies windows? What is their typical bedtime? What is their typical habit? Because you know with twins it can be all over the place and you can’t keep all that in your head.”

(N)
“So visit the pediatrician, start keeping a log and…”
(K)
“Try to figure out their ideal bedtime or time to put them down.”

(N)
“How do we do that? That’s easier said than done.”

(K)
“You kinda have to watch your baby and your clock at the same time, and depending on your baby it could be anywhere from seven p.m. and ten p.m. especially for really little guys and we’re not going to be sleep training really little guys so let’s just say a six month old should be around seven p.m. and then we want to fill the daytime sleep tank anyway that we can get it {inaudible} because we always start sleep coaching at bedtime. Never with naps.”

(N)
“I know you say that and I talk about that all the time and my fear with that is when you start at night when you start with babies in the day – you’re so exhausted and I feel that even though the babies have a better shot I feel that the parents are too shot of actually sticking to the plan because if they did put them in and they did wrestle with this they’d be like ‘I can’t do it I’m exhausted just go get the baby’, I think that it’s too hard and they..”

(K)
“I think it’s true when it’s two in the morning. instead of seven o’clock at night and hopefully you have another parent at home or caregiver who can help you and hopefully you’ve had a little nap yourself in the afternoon and when you get to seven o’clock your baby is well rested and well fed and hopefully you’ve have your plan. You’re not making your plan that moment and we don’t want to make plans at two a.m. and I really think that’s a better plan plus it’s easier so let’s pick the easiest time for the child.”

(N)
“So that’s your time. Alright now I have a question because I love to ask, I would love to know where you guys are from so let’s put in your city and state and I will be traveling a bit and kim and I were talking about where we are going this year for work and for fun, or at least we will work for two hours and tax deduct it because that’s how I roll, we would love to know where you guys are from and another thing we would love to know how old your kids are. If everybody who is on today has more infants we can talk more infants and if everybody on today has more toddlers we can talk more toddlers and we have more questions – but before – let’s giveaway some prizes {singing}. So what we want to give away is a pair of the Swaddle UPs, these are the stage one swaddles. So you are familiar in the art and I always forget how to put it on, so this is the Love To Dream swaddle and why we greatly prefer it over here at Twiniversity is because it’s an arms up swaddle. So while you put your baby in it, they have their arms up – swaddled. But lets say I put Fred in back to sleep – always, and it’s not usually up all in their face, so when Fred flips over, that’s the first day that Fred has flipped over, Fred is not stuck in this position and can use his little paws to push up and he’s not trapped in this position. It’s kind of a game changer to me in the swaddle industry and it’s so intuitive that I can’t figure out why it wasn’t invented twenty years ago.”

(K)
“And the baby can suck on their hand and then hands can be together on their chest.”

(N)
“These are the two that we are going to give away first. It has a belt buckle but we don’t use it here, The european, the U.K and Australia use this to buckle into the stroller but we don’t use it here. Another great feature is that is zippers both from the bottom and the top so if you want to do a quick diaper change in the middle of the night zip it up and then did you see the top? It has a little cover that when you zip up the kids you don’t cut – I still do it but now it’s out of rage, but you don’t get their little chins caught. Oh well, so we are giving away two of these if you would like to win just say Hi Fred! That’s it! It’s literally that simple and we will enter you to win.”

(K)
“How big are these?”

(N)
“They have different sizes, just tell Julie what size you need. They have small, medium and large. Which the other good thing is because of buying nine sizes, they have three sizes. Small is from 6 and a half to thirteen, medium from thirteen to eighteen and large is from eighteen to thirty four. So they make a bunch of swaddles so this is what you would register for is you are expecting teeny tiny babies. So all you have to say is Hi Fred! So let’s go to one of Julie’s questions since she’s sending us twenty-six million of them. It’s good actually and I want to help as many people as we can. Kayla asks, ‘How can I help my twenty month old twins stay asleep at night? My boy wakes up at least twice a night still and wakes his sister up. Last night he stayed up for at least an hour and a half’. He’s twenty months old and waking up twice a night, waking his sister. First I’m wondering if they are still sleeping together?”

(K)
“I was thinking I am wondering if they are sleeping in a crib? Or a toddler bed? Sometimes people take them out pretty early?”

(N)
“So Kayla we have some back questions for you. Where are the puppies sleeping? In a crib or toddler bed? Are they sleeping together or are they sleeping separate? Lets just say…”

(K)
Well I’m just going to assume they are in the same room because how else would they wake each other up?

(N)
Yes yes. I mean, in the same crib or separate cribs. Let’s assume separate cribs and let’s assume cribs.

(K)
Either way, either way, I can give some helpful advice. One of the typical things I see with parents of twins of twenty month olds and toddlers in general is – you’ve usually gone down to one nap, getting rid of the morning nap and they pushed it later and later and got stuck.

(N)
Ok, Kayla says they are in a room and still separate cribs – our room. Ok, they are in one room with them. Separate cribs.

(K)
Ok, good that will be easier that they are in a crib. So I would look at the nap timing. So you don’t want them napping before twelve noon. And a lot of time I see parents getting rid of the morning nap and getting until around eleven, then they are napping from like eleven to one and going to bed at seven-thirty and then they are up for, like six-and-a-half hours. And they are completely a wreck which will cause the night wakings and the early mornings. And you can even get some of that split night experience with a large awakening in the middle of the night.

(N)
Well, she said an hour and a half. That’s quite a bit.

(K)
Exactly. Usually when I see a large awakening like that I look at the naps – when are the naps, where is the bedtime. And of course, the most important question is “do your twins know how to put themselves to sleep independently?”. So when you put them to bed, hopefully early enough and again that’s seven or seven-thirty, are they put in awake and aware that they are being put in the crib. Not on a scale of one to ten like totally asleep, like a nine. And if they are going to sleep like – BAM! And I give them a bottle and just a tiny night light or I read them a story and sing them a song and it’s getting like that heavy-eyed, it’s really that drowsy but awake thing then we need to change that saying. And that applies to the whole…

(N)
So what do you want to say? So they are drowsy and let’s say they are bigger.. So awake, awake and awake.

(K)
I always think they need to be dry, fed, loved, warm and into bed. So they’ve had all their needs met, including nurtured and loved, and including the sleep environment at the right time – and kisses and into bed.

(N)
Ok. Ok.

(K)
So that there is no feeling of being tricked, ok? Cause when we all wake up and have these personal arousals through the night, you don’t want them to wake up and say “oh my gosh, where, where is mom and dad and I need you to come in and do that thing you do to make me go back to sleep”.

(N)
So awake and awake. So at twenty months they should be going to their cribs, fairly awake and be like, short book reading, kisses, shut off the lights call it a day, be like – love ya – so that’s good. But they are awake, that’s really… I feel like that’s early but I know it’s really not. They could totally handle it at twenty months.

(K)
What’s early? Like seven p.m. ?

(N)
No, I feel like it’s early to just… you know, without the soothing but it’s just..

(K)
But it is, but you know that the routine is soothing. Do you know that we are all supposed to have a routine? You know?

(N)
Do you?
(K)
Well, I think I do? You know they say just “piddling around” you shouldn’t, you shouldn’t have screen time, I don’t have my phone in my room and I don’t have a laptop in my room. I’ll read if anything but you know, that whole process of brushing your teeth, washing your face, that process…

(N)
I guess your, it is, that’s a whole routine – it is. It is a routine no matter what it is.

(K)
And it cues the body to start to slow down.

(N)
Alright, so what Kayla is going to do tonight is?

(K)
So I don’t know what her naptime is but you wanna make sure that it is, if it falls into that category that it is too early you start making the rule – no napping before twelve noon. Make sure bedtime is early enough and AWAKE. And if for some reason you’re starting to do this earlier and you’re putting to bedtime with the light on, give kisses, put in the crib then light off and he starts crying then you have to say to yourself – Ah ha, then he was probably a little too drowsy before. Then decide if you want to stay, maybe sit next to his crib or beside his crib or verbally reassure him from the side of your bed, and he’s gonna wake up his sister. There’s nothing really you can do about it, other than to go back and forth and reassure them both until they are both asleep. I think that happens even if you have like a six month old and a three year old. I have parents who will say “ I rush in and do whatever I can with the baby because I don’t want them to wake up the three year old who I might have just gotten to sleep through the night six months ago…”

(N)
Yes, and then you just develop a bad habit. Yeah yeah.

(K)
Exactly. I mean, we all do the best we can! I always like to think divide and conquer if bedtime becomes too much for them, then maybe if you can have one parent be with one and you be with the other.

(N)
Alright, are you ready for our next one?

(K)
Yep!

(N)
Ok, N.C. – that’s their name – I have two and a half year old boy/girl twins. My son has separation anxiety at night. My husband works long hours during the week and my son won’t go to sleep until my husband is home and laying next to him, in our bed. No idea where to start rectifying this. This has been going on for about a year and no issues with our daughter. So giving you the age again – two and a half, separation anxiety from daddy. Daddy works long hours during the week. When daddy comes home he rescues baby boy and brings them into their bed where they are all finally happy – but she’s like “I’ve got enough of this” but the little chick is totally fine. What do we do?

(K)
Right. So you know, the separation and individuation is a long process. Many years, and our kids kinda dip into it and have peak times, may we say the half years are kinda the more challenging times, and I wonder – not that separation anxiety isn’t the issue, but you did say this had been going on for a year?

(N)
More than a year.

(K)
More. More than a year, ok , and we do have separation anxiety at eighteen months too but it means that it might not just be that.

(N)
There’s more to this.

(K)
It’s probably that, and again I’m just hearing a slight amount of your story so please be understanding but it might just be that he needs his dad to go to sleep because that’s the association…

(N)
That’s the sleep ritual.

(K)
Exactly. That’s the… I need daddy to lie down with me and mommy can’t, and maybe mommy is putting my sister asleep and…

(N)
And maybe mommy won’t. Maybe that’s the other thing?

(K)
Maybe that’s the other thing.

(N)
So you are like no thank you, I’m not putting you to bed and then your husband comes home and out of guilt of working long hours and goes and liberates a kid, his little dude especially, then it may be not only helping your son, but it truthfully might also be helping your husband. The separation issue, it may be a little…

(K)
Right and it may be feeling guilty. And who would want to come home and then have to say “cry it out? In the crib. So I would say, wait until a weekend or a time when your husband is home and has some time, and you have to decide if you want to do this with them in the same room or separate them temporarily, because it’s kinda not fair to the sister, so then I would remove the good sleeper temporarily…

(N)
The Good Twin {laughs}

(K)
Or I would just say the good sleeper at this point, um because I would be sure to say that it’s a good child…

(N)
Yep, every child is a good child.

(K)
Exactly. And then I would have… OOPS {Buzzing siren in the background}

(N)
Sorry Kim! Excuse me! Finish the question!

(N)
{laughing} That scared me! Be sure that you get to bedtime early enough to get them into the crib. And you have dad sit next to the crib, and I have “rules” about my shuffle and the first one is not getting into a struggle about laying them down because you will never win that – and if you pat, shush, hum, sing – you gotta do it intermittently. You control the touch so don’t start letting them fall asleep while they are holding your finger, because when you get up they get all – and that starts a fit and the third one is you can pick them up if they get hysterical but not hold them to sleep. So you really have to focus on bedtime and it would be great if dad could start it.

(N)
Sure! So he’s gotta be involved too, this is a family situation…

(K)
And if he can’t then mom has to do it.

(N)
Yes. Yes. The peanut gallery, man my life. Everyone has something to say over here. Yes, really I mean it’s really really something else. Ok we’re gonna give away another prize are you ready?

(K)
Ready!

(N)
Ok, so we are going to give away the Nuzzlin 0.2 Tog Sleep Bag {dog barking and alarm in the background goes off again} Oh My Gosh! It is like… Can I tell you? God Forbid, Kim Answer that next question… This is what my (inaudible} was, here answer that next one.

(K)
Ok! {laughing} It doesn’t say who this is from so, ok. My Twins start to fuss and wake up for the day around five a.m most days. A lot of times I will continually pop their pacifiers back in to get them to try to sleep until seven. Will this eventually train them to sleep until seven? Ok. So I’m not sure the name of this mom or even how old your twins are, so what I’m going to do is give you some advice on early rising, which is a super big topic and I can also give you some tips on pacifiers which is also a super big topic and will apply to a lot of people. Ok, most common causes of early rising, and I consider early rising starting the day before six a.m. And some kids do – wake and want to start the day at six a.m. and they do and they are rested, or wake between six and seven thirty and are well rested even though you may not be so. The first is too late of a bedtime…

(N)
{arrives back} Yes.

(K)
I know that’s not, that doesn’t make sense but it’s true. Nap deprivation – so all those people who are like, “oh your child’s waking up early and still napping, just skip the naps”, I’ll tell you no, don’t listen to them that’s not true. The third one is too big of a wakeful window and that’s from afternoon time to bedtime, so remember that example I gave before where the child was awake for like six and a half hours, depending on the age of the child it’s really like four or five hours maximum – five being like toddler, preschoolers and four being like nine months until like two or about that time. So, too big of a wakeful window there and then the fourth one which is kind of, uh intuitive thing is going to bed too drowsy. Remember what we were talking about before – bedtime is the easiest time to put yourself to sleep, so if you do it for your child at bedtime but then you say at five a.m. “hey buddy you’re own your own” it’s really too hard. I know that If I wake up and start to think of all the seven thousand things that I have to do then it’s like, forget it. You don’t have enough sleep pressure to put yourself back to sleep. The fifth reason and we’ll go to some information about pacifiers if you want…

(N)
I do.

(K)
Is sleep apnea. Obstructive sleep apnea can cause early rising.

(N)
We talked about that before.

(K)
We did.

(N)
So how common is sleep apnea? Cause you talk about it and we’ve spoken about it a few times.

(K)
I know and I have a statistic, and it’s popped out of my head but I want to say 10-15%…

(N)
That’s high!

(K)
You know what? I have an article on my site. If you go to my site then go to my blog and go to the search thing, then look up an article from Dr. Kass – K-A-S-S, Pediatric Pulmonologist, board certified in sleep medicine and the nicest man ever.

(N)
Where is he located?

(K)
Right here in New York. West Chester county. Yep, and he wrote an article for my blog about this! The most common causes of sleep apnea are from enlarged tonsils and adenoids and I’m not talking about sleep apnea from prematurity…

(N)
No, no … No I understand that and I’m not talking about that, I’m just talking about sleep apnea in general and I didn’t even know that it was something that infants or children can have and we talked about it last time we were together and I was shocked! And I never even heard it come up in the group and I guess it’s one of those situations where the parent has to initiate it and say “hey listen , is this something that could be going on and is this something that I should worry about?” So yeah, that’s that.

(K)
Yep. And it has to be diagnosed. Yep.

(N)
Wow. That’s just crazy. Ok, I wanna give away our prize!

(K)
And then we will go back to pacifiers.

(N)
Totally! So we’re giving away the sleeping bags and the sleeping bags are perfect for kids with sensitive skin, they have plenty of zippers which are perfect for diapers changes and they are… have a super comfy fit. So here’s why I think that the sleeping sacks are so important. I really do think that when you have kids and they are sleeping in the cribs wearing the sleeping sacks like the ones we are going to give away – they can’t escape. They can’t get their leg up or over the rail and they can’t get up. And if you have had an experience with your twinnies escaping, I want to see some thumbs up and if you would like to win some sleeping bags just say “We want to win some sleeping bags!” Just put that in, we will pick a winner! Just sleeping bags are kinda a twin parent essential, where I know that singleton parents love themselves a good sleeping bag but it’s viewed as a different thing – when one gets out, they are going to liberate the other and now we have a whole mess going on! I remember when the twins were little we were friends with triplets and we went over to their house and they have the three cribs and that’s it – no changing table, no nothing because they would escape so often and then they would trash their room like frat boys, they just went crazy! So once they discovered the sleep sacks, life got a little bit easier. And they were like, “why didn’t somebody tell us there was this added purpose, besides the comfort and the warmth and the ease of it – it also prevents Houdini”.

(K)
You know, you made me think of the cutest story of the quadruplets cases that I’ve worked with, and this was back in the day when sleep tents weren’t banned…”

(N)
I know, I love sleep tents and we can’t say that though…

(K)
And for them we were using sleep tents because they were twenty months old and climbing out..

(N)
So for those of you who don’t know what sleep tents are, for those of you, if you picture a – it’s like a literal tent…

(K)
Like a mosquito netting…

(N)
So they were created so that cats wouldn’t just inside the crib, and they weren’t ever created so that you could keep your baby in the crib, they just were created for whatever pets you had wouldn’t jump inside the crib. However, parents of multiples found that — oohhh, we could trap them into their little crib and they are safe!

(K)
Well, also it would help when they would throw their pacifier out and play the fetching game or when they are super young and like all-terrain vehicles, anyway these quadruplets, one of them, I can’t wait to see – He’s probably going to do amazing things in his life {laughs} he figured out how to unzip it, and this was not easy, these are not easy – they have all this, a cover on it and he figured it out, from the inside he unzipped it, got out and unzipped his siblings.

(N)
Kim, that is what.. That is what they would do! So we had crib tents and I got them as a hand me down, and truthfully I don’t think they were even allowed when my kids were little, but I got them from another twin mom and Anna discovered how to open it and she would wiggle her little finger in the crevice and she would unzip the entire thing! So we would take yarn and tie it so that we could break it if we needed to, but she figured that out too! I knew that girl was trouble from a long time ago. And you know what, she’s lived up to it, so what do you know. So we just gave away some great sleep bags and that’s perfect and I want to answer more questions – Kim is that allowed? Are you going to be ok with me?

(K)
Yep! Yep.

(N)
And I totally think that we should give away another prize, is that allowed? That is totally – I would love to do a Starbucks or a Dunkins gift card… Because if we are talking about sleep. It’s a twin parenting essential, I feel. Caffeine, tea, you might not like coffee. So if you would like to win a gift from me just say “I’m Tired!” and we will shoot you over a Starbucks or Dunkins gift card, you just gotta let us know. And all you have to let us know is that you’re tired – I love seeing those thumbs up! It lets me know I am not alone! My kids are twelve and I’m still tired… And when that alarm goes off I ask myself, “ How can this be happening Again??”

(K)
Again!

(N)
Again!

(K) Again. Ugh, School starts so early.

(N)
And I have to get up just as early because they are.. Um, not as great as I would want them to be. They have to be reminded way more than.. Like, if I have to tell you at twelve to brush your teeth, like, I’m livid or angry. So.. Ok, Kendra says “what’s the best way of transition from co sleeping from crib? My twins are four months and will lay in their crib happy, but won’t fall asleep unless in our bed. So, twins- right now they are 4 months, content to play in their crib and family sleeping in bed so they need to go. So Kendra, this is what I’m taking away from your question.

(K)
Ok. So my guess is that {coughs} excuse me, chest cold here. My guess, Kendra is that perhaps when you put them to sleep into your bed you’re doing something, maybe feeding or nursing them to sleep or they are snuggled into your armpit, or maybe you’re patting them or they are on your chest, usually you’re doing something. So let’s just pretend they are on your chest and the other baby is on your partner’s chest, let’s just start with the next night trying to put them on your arm or beside you, and then the next night try to move them a little farther away from you with your hand on them, I don’t know if I’m holding Fred up high enough – but, and then the next night a little bit less touching and then you can get to the point, I just would put the crib beside the bed, put them into the crib where we can easily reach them, I mean now we can’t lower the sides down of the crib anymore – things just get taken away from us as parents…

(N)
Always! {shaking her head} It was one bad apple. One bad apple.

(K)
And then do it that way, and then you can slowly even move the crib father away.

(N)
How long does, how long does the entire process take really, like if we are really thinking about it and we start out with them on our chest like is it going to be a few nights, is it going to be a week, is it going to be…

(K)
No, I think you have to use your intuition as a parent and also how your child – some children are going to be able to adapt quicker than others and that’s based on the parent, and remember that four month sleep regression. If you baby seems fine then ok, go! And if they don’t then wait until they are four and a half.

(N)
Ok are we doing good with with Kendra? I feel like we still have a lot of questions, Kim and I always feel so guilty when we can’t get to all of them! Ok we are going to go to Jessica. Jessica says “If one is crawling out of their crib at night and one is not, do we go ahead and change one to a toddler bed and have one in a crib?

(K)
Oh this is so tough!

(N)
Is it really? I say that everybody goes to toddler beds.

(K)
But how old, we don’t even know how old..

(N)
We don’t… But this is why I say this to however old they are, because whoever is in the crib, once they see the toddler bed they are going to want the toddler bed. Because it’s the new thing.

(K)
But it depends, what if they are eighteen months old?

(N)
What if they are eighteen months old? Well if they are crawling out, well I just have…

(K)
I always like to try to see if we can do some things to try and keep them in, like..

(N)
Like try what things?

(K)
Like your sleep sack thing.

(N)
I love my sleep sack thing.

(K)
I know this seems kind of {inaudible} but have you seen the sleepers with the tab between the feet so that they can’t kick or keep kicking out…

(N)
It’s the same thing! It’s the same premise as a sleeping bag,,,

(K)
Because sometimes the sleep sacks can be kinda big and they can move around.. And are stretchy.. And even by staying next to the crib or by the door and when they lift the leg – Ah Ah Ah Ah! You could try that.

(N)
You could. I’m curious, is it baby A that is getting out? I find that baby A’s are our – not our troublemakers but our… mischievous puppies perhaps?

(K)
Reach those milestones sooner.

(N)
So I would say you could try Kim’s thing but if you’re going to do it- everybody wants the new thing! Then they are going to be like, “why is she in the new Bubble Guppies bed and I’m sitting here in the old crib”. You know what’s good though that you didn’t say Jessica, you didn’t say if you could take a side – They are eighteen months, we just found out…”

(K)
Ah, See! {laughs} I guessed that one!

(N)
Your premonition! Exactly…

(K)
That is like, eighteen month olds in toddlers beds….

(N)
And it is baby A, by the way…

(K)
We are both on it! So, eighteen month olds in toddler beds – that is a challenge. They are going to be getting up a lot, you’re going to have to gate the door, baby proof the room…

(N)
You’re going to have to do that anyway and honestly, it’s never too soon to baby proof your child’s room because the day that you are going to want your child’s room to be baby proofed, you’re going to want it to be baby proofed. Which is actually a good segue to talk about a side product – remember when I was telling you about Kudos last night?

(K)
Oh yes!

(N)
About the new safety line? So there is a new safety line of kids products that is coming out and it’s really fascinating because what they did – what they did was take very difficult things to draw latches or hinges so that the dresser doesn’t fall over and they put together these packages in ways that you could do it so that you could do it sometimes with no tools! It’s really interesting, like the bracket for the wall, you could put this big nail in it and turn it and then it becomes it’s own anchor.

(K)
Wow!

(N)
So Jules if you could throw that up, that would be great and if you- you have to baby proof, sooner than you think and if you are going to even contemplate moving to toddler beds then everything has to be bolted down- everything – AHH { yells into the camera } Qdos is on too!

(K)
Whoo hoo!

(N)
We were talking about you {Qdos} last night and I am just am absolutely amazed that even with Twiniversity, I don’t know if you know but we’ve had some very tragic incidents that would have been – like holes and fireplaces and ends of tables, like bad Kim, superbad. So I am a little wacky when it comes to safety because I don’t think that it’s ever too soon and I love that Qdos is on and Qdos – thank you for sending them the link! And if you could send them the link to the bracket that sticks in the wall and holds anything, thank you that would rock my universe. Ok good, then that’s there.

(K)
By the way, we could just put a little crib tidbit for any crib manufacturers out there, why don’t we just make crib railings higher? Cause apparently they do that in some countries in Europe where the people are taller and the children are taller?

(N)
Wonder where we can find out? I’m going to find out.

(K)
That’s just like my little plug.

(N)
So wait a second, so you’re saying that because the children are taller, the cribs are taller? Or you’re just saying that because the children are taller make a taller crib anyway?

(K)
They make a taller crib anyway and they say because.. They are taller.

(N)
And then they can’t get out.

(K)
And I think that why – I mean, since we don’t have crib tents and the thing is that the average age to have the cognitive skills to know to stay in your bed all night and have the impulse control to help you is two and a half. And that’s just the average! So eighteen months, you’ve got a whole year so I just think that if we had a way to keep them in longer, and I must say that some kids really prefer their crib. They like that cozy, containment feeling.

(N)
We didn’t talk about pacifiers. So let’s talk about pacifiers because I do want to talk about this and it is something that I know comes up a lot with Twiniversity and I am very pro-pacifier and I know there are lots of people who are very anti-pacifier. So what’s your take on the pacifier situation?

(K)
You know I think that the pacifier goes in and out of style. Like it think that it’s every ten years and then it’s…

(N)
So do you think it’s in right now or out, because I don’t pay attention to that?

(K)
It’s in!

(N)
It’s in! How many years do we have left? {laughs}

(K)
It’s in right now because of – it’s still that correlation with that SIDS reduction and pacifier use and that again is in the very early months, and I think that many parents then can get in a panic because then what if you have a child who doesn’t take the pacifier?

(N)
I know that they feel like they are doing something wrong already, yeah yeah yeah. Alrighty…

(K)
In the big scheme – So let’s put aside the pacifier and SIDS studies right now because the big issue, and I think that the biggest pacifier issue is, you know the pincher grab? So the pincher grasp that you can pick something up and put it, so you can pick up something like pasta and put it in your mouth – that grasp isn’t developed until eight months of age. Now, I’ve seen some six month olds do it and I haven’t seen many children younger than that do it. Before that, they have like a raking motion with a pacifier and they manage to get it right side out or inside out, you know, and they don’t have that fine motor skill and so that means that if they don’t have the skill that will be your job to go back in and keep replugging. If they do have the skill, then you can start to teach them to do it first, by putting it in their hand and then doing it that way. The unfortunate part of pacifiers is, a lot of parents say I wanna get rid of the pacifier and my child’s whatever – six months or so and we are replugging it, what, thirty time a day…

(N)
Six months… Six months, that’s early. That’s early to get rid of a pacifier.

(K)
Yeah but if a parent is getting up thirty times during the night to replug it, and I’m not exaggerating with that number.

(N)
Yeah, that’s a lot. That’s a lot. I feel you, yeah.

(K)
I mean, maybe ten but often more…

(N)
So what is a parent to do?

(K)
Here’s the really tough news that I can’t stand about the pacifier because there is no gradual way – because it’s either in your mouth or it’s not. So I do tell parents that you can get rid of it at night and keep it for naps, you think that would confuse them but it works. Then you notice that you are constantly replugging them for the naps too and that’s getting too much then you can wean then from the naps too. So I always give the families first the options, So I say to them if you keep it, then you really have to put the – then you have to teach them to put it into their mouth.

(N)
Then you’re going to be plugging them for a while. And now they have glow in the dark pacifiers, did you know this?

(K)
Yes I did know this! I really like those

(N)
And another big thing about pacifiers is, if you are going to use them then you have to use the correct age of the pacifier. The spacing of the bulb and the handle is going to extend as the babies get older. So many parents are like, “well they really got used to the one they used in the hospital!” Well it’s really important for oral motor development and you really have to stay on top of the age and when you can move to the six months plus pacifier and when you can then graduate to the one year – Now that’s a tough one because many parents are like that they have gotten so used to it – why rock the boat? But it will make a very big difference, but you really have to be careful and stay on top of it and those little teeth, so you have to make sure you are doing it right.

(K)
And also, try to keep if you can especially for older babies or toddlers – try to get the pacifier just for sleep, especially if you are keeping it it will make it that much easier, and the good thing is that I think that if your toddler has it, I think you need to wait until they have language until you get rid of it…

(N)
Ah, really? Yeah that’s tough…

(K)
Ah, at eighteen months to two years, that’s really tough but can I tell you…

(N) But you know what’s weird, like the weird thing about twin parents in general is that we don’t have that guilt. We are like, oh let the baby have it as long as they want and there’s no mom shaming out there for it, well I shouldn’t say there’s no mom shaming out there…

(K)
There’s less!
(N)
There’s significantly less in the twin mom universe and we’re like “whatever it takes for you to get some rest” that’s what happens.

(K)
But I’ve also clients whos’ doctors will say, “ok now it’s this age so let’s get rid of the pacifier”.

(N)
Right. Ok now I also want to give away another set of sleeping bags! And it’s almost time for us to go, Kim!

(K)
Oh my gosh… There’s so much to talk about it.

(N)
But by the way, the door was a package from Ireland – I have no idea what it is but it’s DHL and they are really neurotic, like you have to sign, but I’m excited to see what it is and i’ll tell you on our next live feed. But the next thing we are going to give away is the Inventa Sleep Bag. Inventa, it’s the 0.5 and 1.0 Sleep Bag… So Jules is going to throw up some links and they are available in sizes four months up to thirty-six months, so they have tons of different sizes and they are sleep bags again. So going back to our whole thing about sleep bags – they have wonderful vents and yes, I think I’m reading that right… They are 100% cotton which they have to be and – I know which ones we are talking about now! They have the cooling vents so they are perfect for the summer time! It lets a little more air in especially if you are going outside, so if you’re going to a BBQ in the summertime and babies love to have that whole sleep routine… And if your sleep routine is putting on another one of these sleep bags, this is another way that you can make sure they are temperature controlled in the summertime. So if you want to win some of these sleep bags, all you have is do is shout out I think “Inventa” yeah, I think we are using the word “Inventa” so use it- just throw it out there, say something with “Inventa” and Julie will make sure that you get a set of the Inventa sleep bags, and you know… We love partnering with our peeps at Love To Dream and the Love To Dream team is genuinely a dream and we’ve been working with them for quite a while now. Fred has never cried and I credit the fact that he has been in the dream swaddle – Fred has never cried since he got here.

(K)
Yep!

(N)
He’s been so content. Did you see his little outfit underneath? Look at this it’s a new – well it’s not that new but it’s from Magnificent Baby and all of the clothes are magnetic so there are no snaps and it just closes on it’s own. Isn’t that neat?

(K)
WOW!

(N)
Isn’t that neat? Twin mom invented, of course! I love it! So if you are all thumbs that is what Fred is sleeping in. So what do you recommend as far as clothes go? We always say that babies should be wearing one more layer than you are wearing hence wear the sleep bags, the swaddles and if you are walking around your house in a T-shirt, then the baby should be wearing something comparable and then something like the sleep bag on top. Correct?

(K)
Correct!

(N)
Alright. And then temperature control in their room, what is the ideal sleep temperature?

(K)
You know, there is LOTS of controversy over this!…

(N)
I know, Kim! This is why I asked you.

(K)
You know they say 68-72 degrees fahrenheit but really…

(N)
Is that because I started that?

(K)
But really that has to be, “does it feel cool to you?”

(N)
Could we do one more question? Can we? And I always say 68 because I like to give people an actual number. They’re like ‘I’m worried about it’

(K)
And then the National Sleep Foundation will ask you to give a range because I don’t know what – your thermostat is different from my thermostat, What? In general we are all supposed to sleep in cool, dark and quiet environments. All of us.

(N)
What about white noise?

(K)
I’m totally pro white noise.

(N)
Do you sleep with white noise every night?

(K)
I don’t.

(N)
You don’t? I do. Every night and if I do…

(K)
Well in the winter I use a humidifier so that’s like white noise.

(N)
But if I’m coming to stay at your house do I have to bring my own white noise machine?

(K)
No, I do have some…

(N)
{laughs} Ok good, just making sure. But when in need I have an app…

(K)
Oh yes, there are great Apps for that!

(N)
Ok, I have one last question then we have to wrap it up because I know we could do this forever. My twins are three months and prefer to sleep in swings! How do I transition them into the crib and is it time yet?

(K)
No.

(N)
No! Of course not, they are three months old it’s not time yet. Look, how great is it that for a minute we are totally not going to make you feel about your little ones sleeping in swings?! Look, you do what works! I’m just thrilled that the kids are sleeping and at three months to have any time – I will take it! Long as… they are – OH! We have one more prize, thanks Jule! As long as they are sleeping and they are safe meaning they are buckled in and…

(K)
Not squished down too much…

(N)
Right, I would never let them sleep like that overnight in the swings, I think that’s too much crunchy time, but you just gotta make sure that you are balancing your crib time, or even if they are sleeping in a car seat, you have to balance it out with tummy time and I know that people undervalue the core and baby pilates and that was our issues – Anna had such bad reflux that she had to sleep in her carseat and everybody was like “You can’t let your children sleep in a carseat” and I was like, Listen either she is going to sleep in a carseat or we are going to have some choking issues. So she ended up sleeping in the car seat for months – for months and months and months and then ended up needing a significant amount of physical therapy because she had never developed her trunk muscles. Alright, we have three more prizes! We are going to give away serial prizes ok? Ready?

(K)
Ok!

(N)
The first thing that we are going to give away is, we are going to give away fifty-fifty’s that are going to be given away. Do you know what the fifty-fifty is? I don’t have one right here but ok, look- Kim knows! It’s the traditional swaddle that has the arms that zip off! So remember how Kim was saying that your babies could still chew on their little paws? So now we can take this off and it’s one more step to getting out of a swaddle lets say – So it makes them a little more liberated and it makes them cooler too so you gotta think about that! So we do have a set of Fifty-fifties to give away and what should they have to say if they want to win a fifty-fifty?

(K)
I’m a hundred percent!

(N)
{laughing} I’m a hundred percent! That’s it! So if you want to win a fifty-fifty then shoot out to us that you are 100 percent. Fred even knows you are! You know what’s funny, when you were holding him I missed him a little bit… You know and it’s crazy, I even hold him in class and I genuine rock him…

(K)
I know! It’s just a habit.

(N)
You just gotta be like, Shhh! Fred, it’s going to be ok. He’s not crying, he never makes a sound, this Fred. So if you wanna win those just make sure that you are 100 percent and I love that you guys are doing that. So now I have a prize from me! So you guys know that I also wrote a book, it’s not as fancy as Kim’s and mine is here on the floor. If you would like to win a copy of my book when I mail Kim’s I’ll include and mail mine out and I will not charge you the extra dollar for the signature because – it’s me and I’m not worried about it. So if you don’t have a copy of “What To Do When You’re Having Two”, ok for a second there I almost forgot the title of my book {laughing}… Has that ever happened to you?

(K)
I could read it for you!

(N)
Oh thank you! So if you want a copy of this all you have to do is say “I want a book” and Julie will pick your name out of the list and I will personally ship this to you and truthfully too, you know what I do? I also throw extra crap into the envelope, like whatever else I have laying around, you know like Post Its – extra Twiniversity post it’s you know, I love…

(K)
Do that when you mail my book too!

(N)
I don’t know, your book is heavy! I gotta make sure your book fits in an envelope. I was saying today that if anyone wanted to write a book then you really should try to stay under 200 pages because then you won’t exceed the thirteen ounce limit and then thirteen ounces is all I can put into the mailbox. This is my author problems, which is.. I mean look at your book, your book is like serious business…

(K)
Well, my book is like four hundred pages.

(N)
My book is like the weight watchers version of your book.

(K)
But my book, what I find that most people do with my book is they read the first two chapters and then they read the age related chapters of mine.

(N)
But you also have the mother of all indexes.

(K)
I like a good index!

(N)
Me too! We paid a lot of money for that index, I thought we could do it ourselves but apparently not. So if you need a book! Then we have another prize – my favorite prize because they get to hang out with me for hours! A seat in our online class so if you would like to join us in our next online Twiniversity class where I will be stealing all of Kim’s tips that she just gave you and incorporating them into our class because that’s how we work together – and for the record if you haven’t figured it out, Kim and I are also friends…

(K)
Yes!

(N)
We are lucky to know each other but I will also be stealing her info and it’s really great because if you do seem to be having some difficult sleep questions and if we can’t figure it out together, then I know this one and she can – harrass her! I’ll text you {to Kim} and be like, “Heyyy”…

(K)
Yep! {laughing} yep. And also I just wanted to say that on my Facebook page on March 15th..

(N)
What are we doing?

(K)
A huge giveaway!

(N)
What are we giving away? A car?!

(K)
My gosh, I wish. We are giving away…

(N)
Hold on, wait! All you have to do is say “I want to come to class” – ok now you can tell us, because I forgot to tell them. Ok what are you giving away? We’re not winning a car? Disappointed.

(K)
We have a Dock-A-Tot, a Crane Humidifier, we have the Love To Dream products, we have Pampers Diapers…

(N)
Like it!

(K)
We have the Pure Safety Crib, the zip up crib…

(N)
Ah, Really?! Is somebody else making those?

(K)
No, they changed their name from Wonder Bumpers to Pure Safety to get away from Bumpers because bumpers are banned…

(N)
Jule, there is a YouTube Video that I did so that they can see them, I have one if you need one to demo…

(K)
I have it all! And we are going to be doing demos too. And of course we will be giving away two of my eCourses and some of my books and there will be a big grand prize for someone to get it all!

(N)
I love it! But no car.

(K)
No car.

(N)
Alright Kim! Listen someday, wouldn’t that be amazing if we gave away a…

(K)
It’d be like Oprah! It’s like a big baby shower!

(N)
We’re just going to tell them it’s a car, we’re not going to tell them it’s an ’82 Datson {laughing} that has no tires! We’re giving away a car, it’s true! But maybe a little matchbox? That’s what we are going to do. That’s what we are going to do. Thank you so much for joining us today, we are sorry that we went over and hope that we didn’t ruin your afternoon! Fred, me and Kim will miss you very much and we just wanted to thank you once again for our friends over at Love to Dream and you will see them again at Kim’s party coming up and again don’t forget to check our their new website which is so exciting! Are you doing a new website by any chance?

(K)
No!

(N)
We are! Gasp, that was the first time that we told everybody! It’s really exciting and I’m going to show it to you after this. So see you later , alligators! Good luck and if you still haven’t entered for class all you have to say is “I wanna join you for class” – Love To Dream, It is our pleasure {blows kisses} and I don’t know who it is over there at Love To Dream but the whole crew, we send super big hearts over there to you, that’s my super big heart and alright guys – See you later and have a good day!

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